Deutsch Jakob / Sofer Jakob Schlomo – 04. Dezember 1871
Jakob Deutsch / Jakob Schlomo Sofer, 21. Kislew 5632 (Montag, 04. Dezember 1871)
Sterbematriken: Deutsch Jakob, geboren in Mattersdorf, verheiratet, Hausierer, verstorben am 04. Dezember 1871, mit 52 Jahren an Lungenentzündung, in Mattersdorf.
Laut hebräischer Inschrift wird Jakob Deutsch am nächsten Tag, יום ג, “Dienstag (22. Kislev = 05. Dezember)” begraben.
Der Vater von Jakob Schlomo ist David Hersch Sofer (4. Zeile Inschrift).
Die beiden Vornamen des Verstorbenen finden sich als Akrostychon in der Inschrift von Zeile 7-14: “Jakob Schlomo” יעקב שלמה.
I see that slowly our family’s history in Mattersdorf is coming up.
Jacob Schlomo Sofer Deutsch is my grandfather’s father. They used the surname Sofer in Hebrew and Deutsch in the official documents. I do not know where Sofer came from (Carole Vogel and Yitzhok Stroh – do you have the answer?)
The other members of the family that came up were commented by Carole.
Keep up your good work.
YISHAR KOACH
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[...] Update, 24. 05. 2010: In hebräischen Quellen wurde der Name “Sopher”, in den offiziellen Urkunden der Name “Deutsch” verwendet, siehe Kommentar zum Thema. [...]
It is likely that the Deutsch family line with the Hebrew surname SOFER can be traced back to a progenitor who worked as a scribe. The Deutsch-Sofer line in Mattersdorf can be traced back to the early 1700s.
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Chaya-Bathya Markovits schreibt am 22. Juli 2010 um 06:31
In Rabbi Kinstlicher’s book “The Chatam Sofer and his disciples” (Hebrew), p. 138 that R. Josef Zwi Deutsch (brother of R. Mendel Deutsch, the father-in-law of R. Ahron Singer) was the father-in-law of R. Chaim Sofer (not related to the Chatam Sofer), who was rabbi in Gyomore, Szentpeter, Munkacs and Budapest. Could it be that this was the reason for calling this branch of the Deutsch family “Sopher”?
By the way, R. Kinstlicher writes that the aforementioned R. Josef Zwi was an ascendant of R. Meir Deutsch, rabbi in Dresnitz (Moravia, today Strážnice; died 1782) and of R. Jaakov Elieser Braunschweig, rabbi of Kanitz (Dolní Kounice; died 1729).
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Meir Deutsch schreibt am 22. Juli 2010 um 19:17
@ Chaya-Bathya Markovits.
I haven’t got Rabbi Kinstlicher’s book “The Chatam Sofer and his disciples”, but as far as I see from what you have written (from his book) that he actually copied the Deutsch family from the book “Toldot Sofrim”. Prof. Schlomo Spitzer of your Institute asked me about the difference of the generations in “Toldot Sofrim” (that Rabbi Kinstlicher’s book is probably based on it) and in my book “Yalde Shabat”. A research about it was conducted by Mr. Yitzhak Stroh (which I sent to Prof. Spitzer) who came to a conclusion that there was an error in “Toldot Sofrim”. I accepted Mr. Stroh’s argument, as I find it supported by documentation and logic.
You quote from Rabbi Kinstlicher’s book: “that R. Josef Zwi Deutsch (brother of R. Mendel Deutsch, the father-in-law of R. Ahron Singer)”. Was R. Josef Zwi Deutsch the brother of Mendel? According to “Toldot Sofrim” Mendels father was Meir. According to the Mattersdorf documentation Josef Hersh’s [Zvi] father was Reuven. Mr. Yatzhak Stroh, writes about it, among others:
“ואחר בדיקה וחיפוש בפנקס קהילות מט”ד [...] פנקסים אשר בהם נרשמו ריבוי פעמי כל בעלי הבתים שבקהלה בסדר א’ ב’ ומצאתי בכל אותם הרשימות משנת תקע”א בערך עד בערך שנת תר”כ רק איש אחד בשם ר’ יוסף הרש והוא ר’ יוסף הרש סופר ובשום מקום לא נזכר ששם אביו היה מאיר אלא אביו היה ר’ ראובן סופר.”
It seems that the author of “Toldot Sofrim” and Rabbi Kinstlicher while researching the Deutsch family line went off to the famous Moravian Rabbinical family Deutsch. This Moravian Deutsch family was never called Sofer.
I am quite sure that Carole G. Vogel can elaborate on this, and surely Mr. Yitzhak Stroh.
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Carole Vogel schreibt am 22. Juli 2010 um 20:09
Yes, I remember when Yitzchok Stroh was working this through. It became clear that there was an error in the Deutsch-Sofer tree in Toldot Sofrim and Rabbi Kintslicher’s book.
Stroh discovered that the Deutsch-Sofer name appeared in the Hebrew and Yiddish records of Mattersdorf much earlier than R. Chaim Sofer’s marriage to Breindl Deutsch, daughter of Josef Zvi Deutsch.
And it became clear quite early on that Josef Zvi Deutsch-Sofer was NOT the brother of Mendel Deutsch. He was the uncle.
(Mendel Deutsch-Sofer was the son of Moranu Meir Deutsch-Sofer (died circa 1824). Meir was the son of Reuven Deutsch-Sofer who was the son of Mordechai Deutsch-Sofer.)
The errors in my mind put into the question the accuracy of the other genealogical relationships spelled out in “Toldot Sofrim” and Rabbi Kinstlicher’s book.
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We have at the top of his tombstone הקצין. According to my knowledge, this rank is given to ROSH HAKOHOL (Head of the community). I made up a list of the Heads of community of Mattersdorf/burg. He is not on my list and I could not find him as ROSH HAKOHOL in any other publication.
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Johannes schreibt am 15. Juni 2010 um 21:53
Dass dieser Titel dem Rosch HaKahal gegeben wurde, stimmt auch meines Wissens, ich glaube aber nicht ausschließlich. Ich kenne sehr viele Belege auf hebräischen Grabinschriften in Deutschland etwa, in denen הקצין auch verwendet wurde ohne dass der Betreffende eine (nachweisbare) Leitungsfunktion innehatte. הקצין wird dann übersetzt mit “der Einflussreiche” … War der הקצין tatsächlich auch ראש הקהל wird dies meistens doch zusätzlich explizit angemerkt.
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Now about the Deutsch-Sofer question. I still do not have the answer, but found in my documents the tombstone, from the Mattersdorf Jewish cemetery, of Josef Eliezer Deutsch died כ”ט חשון תר”פ. He is the son of Yaakov Schlomo Sofer Deutsch and Rachel Lea nee Abeles.
As we can see in the line of סופרים היו אבותיו the סופר in the word סופרים is in enlarged letters. I think that this is the first tombstone where we have Deutsch and Sofer in Hebrew together.
We can also see on the stone the title הקצין as well as ראש העדה . He was a ROSH HAKAHAL.
Does anyone know what is meant by: גזע תהלם which appears on the stone?
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nir kaufman schreibt am 19. September 2011 um 19:28
In my opinion תהלם This book תהילים
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Meir Deutsch schreibt am 19. September 2011 um 21:37
Dear Nir Kaufman,
If you are right, what does גזע תהילים mean?
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Nir kaufman schreibt am 20. September 2011 um 16:59
Iam Soryy I dont now.
Are you a relative of his? I’s great-grandfather Emil (Asriel), Deutsch and his father’s grave Josef Eliezer Deutsch you related to us?
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Nir kaufman schreibt am 20. September 2011 um 17:54
We have contact. Your father was a cousin of my great grandfather Asriel. So we are close. You live in Israel?
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Meir Deutsch schreibt am 22. September 2011 um 11:23
Dear Nir,
I remember visiting Emil Deutsch and his 3 daughters when they lived in Tel-Aviv.
I do live in Israel, actually in Jerusalem.
If you have my e-mail you can contact me, as this Blog is not FACEBOOK. .
What triggered you to Genealogy at such a tender age?
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nir kaufman schreibt am 3. Oktober 2011 um 14:23
I am the grandson of one of his three daughters
Miriam. I’m doing the family tree alone and with the help ofWith Aziral Horowitz also corresponds here on the blog.
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[...] hebräischer Inschrift (Zeile 2) ist der Ehemann von Gütl Zippora “Jakob Salomo Soph(er)” יעקב שלמה [...]